what should i tell them

[kingloser]

ok i wasnt gonna go here but everyone else is so. Who are you to tell a person how to live their lives? i dont care if u believe that its a person after two days. noone here has the right to tell another person how to live their lives. if your so for adoption why dont you find a bunch of women who would be incubators and knock em all up. that would obviously work for ya. i am anti abortion but i am also pro choice. you say that its their mistake deal with it. who are u to tell them how to deal with it. if they choose to abort are you gonna hunt them down and besiege them with signs and shout at them wherever they go. if so how does that make u any better. last i checked this was still a free country and abortion is legal. i said in my last post that i would hope that if they didnt want it they would choose adoption, but now everyone here believes that they obviously understand these peoples lives and could run them so much better. and obviously my mother couldnt kill me know since it would be illegal while abortion is legal. obviously enough people feel a fetus isnt a person otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation. i believed this discussion was about a fetus and not u killing me or my mother now killing me. I dont want to get too off topic but that ultimately brings me back to it being these peoples choices not ours. I never claimed i had any kids. Its a personal choice. i will be ecstatic when my wife tells me shes pregnant. im not waivering from my beliefs, im embracing personal choice which you obviously couldnt give a hoot about. this is what the whole topic of abortion hinges on. One person believing that they should make another persons choices for them.

Brownman, you should respect the couple who are interested in your opinion -- but you should not convince them one way or another of making a life-choice; its their lives. If they truly respected you -- and themselves -- they would understand your position to remain ambivalent.

Fallacious points aside, its a woman's right to chose -- and dont think they won't struggle with the choice they'll make. Again, whatever religious/political belief you have, refrain from that position and just support the couple in whatever option they make -- everything will work itself out.

And if I choose to kill you because i decide it's what's best for me? Or, lets make it more relevant, what if your mom decided right now that she'd rather not have to deal with you any more and decided to 'off' you? Why is this any different? Because you're older now? Because you can sustain life on the outside of her womb?

Most who believe in a religion don't put that aside because it is bigger than either you, or some pregnant woman and her 'choice'. If Brownman has strong beliefs then all he can do is share them and if they choose to ignore that, then there is nothing he can do and should just move on with life.

Nothing against anyone, but you are likely wrong with your beliefs -- so dont subject others to them in hopes that they are as credulous as you are. I'm glad my parents didn't instill the same dogma they grew-up with. A baby isnt fully formed until the third trimester, buts thats just a technicality (and i do belief in euthanasia). Point is this, philosophically, you cant argue for quality of life with something that isnt even born -- hence, abortion is an option. Currently, two lives have the most to lose/gain from their predicament -- and they have to decide whats best for eachother.

[(TKC)-o]T3[o]

King what you are forgetting is that some of us try to live by a moral code. Most law abiding citizens have some type of moral code they follow. I don't know who here is a Christian, but our moral code is the bible. Christians are suppose to do their very best to abide by what it teaches. Unfortunately all of us fall short. The 'law' that applies to this particular situation is, "thou shalt not kill". A Christians beliefs supercede that of any government. Just because the US Supreme Court has said it's not against the law doesn't mean the act is acceptable to those who believe as I do. We see it as murder. Plan and simple. So the argument about someone killing another, grown person, applies to us. It's the same thing.

You think that because you see some crazies out there taking their protestations too far and act wacko that every one of us who believe abortion is wrong, is a wacko, I guess. I sin every day I'm alive unfortunately. At least I probably do, as do others. I wouldn't want someone to protest my poor decisions and be all up in my grill cause I saw some hot woman and thought about her naked, so I'm not going to do that to someone else. What they do is between them and their God, or, just between them and their own conscious. If I knew someone who was thinking about it, and they came to me for my thoughts, I'd tell them what I believe, what they decide however, is their choice. It just so happens in this particular situation, as a Christian, I see the choice as killing a baby, or letting it live. Just no two ways around it. You are deciding to kill a living baby. How that isn't wrong i'll never know.

[(TKC)-o]T3[o]

Nothing against anyone, but you are likely wrong with your beliefs -- so dont subject others to them in hopes that they are as credulous as you are. I'm glad my parents didn't instill the same dogma they grew-up with. A baby isnt fully formed until the third trimester, buts thats just a technicality (and i do belief in euthanasia). Point is this, philosophically, you cant argue for quality of life with something that isnt even born -- hence, abortion is an option. Currently, two lives have the most to lose/gain from their predicament -- and they have to decide whats best for eachother.

And yet the US Supreme Court can subject their beliefs on me? They can, but only in this world.

I'm not subjecting my beliefs on anyone. This isn't the dark ages and this isn't the crusades. You are free to make your own decisions as far as this government is concerned and I won't bother you about it. However there is a thing called free speech, you get to tell me what you think, and I get to tell you what I think, and others can make up their own mind. So please don't subject ME to your belief that those who don't think as you should be silenced.

I'm assuming you can make your own decisions as you have apparently decided that God isn't real and isn't for you, so I'm assuming my thoughts on abortion will have little to no sway on you, so why do you fear what I say?

And Gobbles, I'm tired of you suggesting that I'm gullible or slow witted because of my beliefs. If you find no evidence of God in this world that is between you and you alone but don't suggest someone is stupid because they believe in a higher power, as that does nothing for respectful discourse.

Well I was going to keep posting on this subject but looks to be getting a bit hairy in here....so, I'm just going to step this way *sticks a foot out the door*

US supreme court: "For the people by the people..."

I didnt say you should be silenced, i was just referring to preaching... you have nothing to worry about... and i dont recall a time where is suggested you were gullible (if you are referring to the credulous thing, i belief thats just proper diction considering creed/religion)

And i only fear ignorance... canon law etc

There is a moral failing when it comes to following the bible (literally at least)...This is the same god who killed every first born in Egypt; who says: "20 And they shall say unto the elders of the city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt put evil..."; who also says (exodus, 21:7) "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." -- also says its a sham unto a man with long hair... you shall not approach a woman on her period... a lot of arbitrary bronze age mythology... this is the problem with using the bible for moral thought...and these are facts presented by the bible to impeach the bible -- not what im trying to do, rather im just trying to contribute to the conversation with facts... dont get me wrong, i've tried reading the bible... and i didnt say there isnt a god.

and i dont know where in the bible they say its forbidden to have an abortion (not sarcasm--i just dont know).

Ok, I changed my mind, I will be commenting again. Here's the facts, these are two people who are in their mid 20's looking at what they've put their whole lives into achieving, going down the drain (in their eye's). We can go back and forth about our opinions and what law/the bible tell us about the issue at hand but it will never help this couple outside of being confused as hell about which side of the debate they should take. Here's what I suggest. They have a lot of discussing to do between the two of them, as they are the only one's who can make the final decision. Having a kid takes a lot of sacrifice but comes with a lot of rewards, but the same can be said about abortion; it too can weigh heavily on their consciousness for the rest of their lives (wondering what the child would have looked like, what it would have done through it's lifetime, etc.). They could very well decide to keep the child, both of them go to work part time, and raise a child that has unlimited potential to achieve in the world. My step-mother did it with my step-brother, went to school full time to be a nurse, while working at Arby's as a manager, and raising her son, for 3 out of 4 years in college. Maybe one of them could finish out the semester and put school aside while the other finishes and go back after the one begins working. There's plenty of options out there for them to consider. They could go ahead with the abortion, but can they go the rest of their lives with the constant question of "What if?". They have a lot to consider and to decide about.

On a side note, when will people figure out that you can't make someone's mind up for them and that attacking a person's personal belief's is definitely not the way to go about doing so. You can state what is general agreed upon to be fact all day, but the end point is that once an individual has made their mind up about what they believe, that's the end of the story. It typically takes a major life-changing even to make them see any other way. At the same time, you can state what you also have faith is the define answer and never make someone see your way either. The best way to spread the word about what you believe to be fact or fiction is to leave it stated as personal opinion and let the one you are reaching out to make up their own mind as to what to believe in.

and i dont know where in the bible they say its forbidden to have an abortion (not sarcasm--i just dont know).

There is not direct scripture that states they abortion is forbidden. The belief that Christians hold about abortion comes from Genesis 9:5 ā€“ ā€œMurder is forbidden.ā€ combined with the idea that even a fetus is a person in the eyes of the Lord. Take it as you will and I'm not saying this is my personal belief as I don't want to get caught up in the back and forth argument that this thread has turned into.

US supreme court: "For the people by the people..."

I didnt say you should be silenced, i was just referring to preaching... you have nothing to worry about... and i dont recall a time where is suggested you were gullible (if you are referring to the credulous thing, i belief thats just proper diction considering creed/religion)

And i only fear ignorance... canon law etc

There is a moral failing when it comes to following the bible (literally at least)...This is the same god who killed every first born in Egypt; who says: "20 And they shall say unto the elders of the city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt put evil..."; who also says (exodus, 21:7) "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." -- also says its a sham unto a man with long hair... you shall not approach a woman on her period... a lot of arbitrary bronze age mythology... this is the problem with using the bible for moral thought...and these are facts presented by the bible to impeach the bible -- not what im trying to do, rather im just trying to contribute to the conversation with facts... dont get me wrong, i've tried reading the bible... and i didnt say there isnt a god.

and i dont know where in the bible they say its forbidden to have an abortion (not sarcasm--i just dont know)..

Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children. But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. The Bible tells us how we should act toward those we love (I Cor. 13:4-7), and this teaching definitely does not allow us to kill them (Rom. 13:8-10). We have clearly established that abortion is wrong without even (thus far) examining passages specifically dealing with murder. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs

"You shall not kill" (probably some forgot is one of the ten commandments)

Ninety-three percent of the abortions in America are for convenience. The mother's health is an issue only three percent of the time, and the baby's health is an issue only three percent of the time. Rape or incest are issues only one percent of the time. Ninety-three percent of all abortions in America are performed just because someone doesn't want a child!

By the way, my wife's aunt was raped and she got pregnant for that (a long time ago), she decided to have the boy, he's grown up now and has finished a career. So i wouldn't make that as an excuse to not have babies.

I didn't want to bring God in all this too, but even without God, i think same as T3, and i think a person with Moral values wouldn't do such thing. I wouldn't even put it as an "option".

[(TKC)-o]T3[o]

US supreme court: "For the people by the people..."

I didnt say you should be silenced, i was just referring to preaching... you have nothing to worry about... and i dont recall a time where is suggested you were gullible (if you are referring to the credulous thing, i belief thats just proper diction considering creed/religion)

And i only fear ignorance... canon law etc

There is a moral failing when it comes to following the bible (literally at least)...This is the same god who killed every first born in Egypt; who says: "20 And they shall say unto the elders of the city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt put evil..."; who also says (exodus, 21:7) "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." -- also says its a sham unto a man with long hair... you shall not approach a woman on her period... a lot of arbitrary bronze age mythology... this is the problem with using the bible for moral thought...and these are facts presented by the bible to impeach the bible -- not what im trying to do, rather im just trying to contribute to the conversation with facts... dont get me wrong, i've tried reading the bible... and i didnt say there isnt a god.

and i dont know where in the bible they say its forbidden to have an abortion (not sarcasm--i just dont know).

Context. You are quoting Old Testament scripture. At that point in history God was saying, at least I think, that if you want to get back to what you had in Eden, you have to listen to me and this is what you do. But also some of this is metaphor. It's not saying stone a drunkard, it says you should reject evil. The Old Testament was one thing, the New Testament is where a Christian gets a lion share of his beliefs and the things he or she is suppose to apply to his life. Do unto others, love thy neighbor, etc.

The Ten Commandments, given to Moses on Mount Sinai in the Old Testament Book of Exodus, relates a series of "Thou shalt nots," evils one must avoid in daily life on earth.

In contrast, the message of Jesus was one of humility, charity, and brotherly love. He taught transformation of the inner person. Jesus presents the Beatitudes in a positive sense, virtues in life which will ultimately lead to reward. Love becomes the motivation for the Christian.

The messages in the New Testament are somewhat different than the Old Testament however there can still be found a harsh message in there for some but let me say this; as Christians we believe we have no right to set any moral clarity, we receive that moral clarity from Him because He is the only one, how do you say this, qualified, yeah that's the word, qualified to set a moral code. Because He is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

And that is the end of this Sunday school lesson as I am no Sunday school teacher. I enjoy, at least sometimes, getting into the differences like this that people have, but as DonJuan essentially said, it's like beating your heat against a brick wall. I appreciate that you weren't trying to silence me or keep me from my beliefs. In the end I certainly hope they do what I think is right by what I understand of the bible, but regardless, they are to be loved.

Now, I need to get back to trying to solve some other things for the clan and will leave this topic to someone more enlightened than me. Be warned however, if anyone on either side of the argument starts to get too testy, I will lock the thread because ultimately regardless of our personal beliefs we are suppose to be friends and enjoy one another, so say what you feel you must, but try to communicate in a respectful manner. If you can't do it, stay away from the topic.

Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children. But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. The Bible tells us how we should act toward those we love (I Cor. 13:4-7), and this teaching definitely does not allow us to kill them (Rom. 13:8-10). We have clearly established that abortion is wrong without even (thus far) examining passages specifically dealing with murder. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs.

I dont see that in the bible monitor? I'm using the king james version.

[(TKC)-o]T3[o]

Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children. But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. The Bible tells us how we should act toward those we love (I Cor. 13:4-7), and this teaching definitely does not allow us to kill them (Rom. 13:8-10). We have clearly established that abortion is wrong without even (thus far) examining passages specifically dealing with murder. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs.

I dont see that in the bible monitor? I'm using the king james version.

I'm guessing that is the Catholic bible.

I am entirelly agree with you T3 on that , but i am still reating for my freinds to call me and tell me what they have decide definitively .

ok im not usually political but heres what i think. b4 i begin this rant ill say that i am anti abortion but that will not change what im gonna say. I believe that u need to tell them that this is their decision and they shouldnt accept one iota of advice concerning this besides that little tidbit u just gave them. Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinion. Of course u could just say well what happened if ur parents aborted u. well obviously nothing becuase u wouldnt be here to be part of this conversation. accidents happen and im not ashamed to say thats why im here. i would be willing to bet alot of u are here for the same reasons. the whole planned parenthood and contraceptives argument is somewhat moot because the only for of 100% sure form of birth control is abstinence. however i know someone who went off her birth control in a semi attempt to have a baby, then went back on after deciding she wanted to go back to school and get her life in better order. despite both birth control and condoms she ended up pregnant a couple months later. so despite the closest to 100% birth control besides the abstinence it still happened. Now adoption is a great option and i would personally prefer that more people take that option over abortion but we have to remember that this is not our body its hers, so who are we to tell them how to treat it. Think of this as a worst case scenario. Say the decide to not abort but give it up for adoption or maybe even keep it. Then while giving birth she dies. So are you now the one who says which life is more important? I for one would not wanna tell someone that their life wasnt worth someone elses. Could u look your daughter/wife/sister/friend in the face and tell them that they should die so that a baby could live? Now im not saying thats gonna happen, thats why i said worst case scenario.

I disagree almost completely. While I do not believe that it is wrong to abort in the instance of probable death to the mother, I don't think the idea that 'its her body so she gets final say' floats at all. Who is speaking for the body of the child? If someone kills another how is that justified? The baby is alive but totally dependent on the mother to sustain it. Where is the mothers responsibility to maintain such a precious thing? Why is it ok to kill another human simply because of an inconvenience? To me its just unbelievable that abortion is still an option when there are alternatives like adoption. My sister had to wait years to adopt because of the long line of people waiting, exactly why in the world is killing a baby an option when there are those waiting to accept the baby and love it and give it the best chance at a happy life as possible? We treat our pets better than that.

Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children. But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. The Bible tells us how we should act toward those we love (I Cor. 13:4-7), and this teaching definitely does not allow us to kill them (Rom. 13:8-10). We have clearly established that abortion is wrong without even (thus far) examining passages specifically dealing with murder. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs.

I dont see that in the bible monitor? I'm using the king james version.

I'm guessing that is the Catholic bible.

whats the authors name, again?

I respect hem and consider them like my freinds and if they ask me my opinion , it is because they know i'm mature enought to give them some good advises and they know it , that i am not gonna try to push them to do what they don't wanna do , but help them to see clearly the options they have .

Brownman, you should respect the couple who are interested in your opinion -- but you should not convince them one way or another of making a life-choice; its their lives. If they truly respected you -- and themselves -- they would understand your position to remain ambivalent.

Fallacious points aside, its a woman's right to chose -- and dont think they won't struggle with the choice they'll make. Again, whatever religious/political belief you have, refrain from that position and just support the couple in whatever option they make -- everything will work itself out.